Redefining CyberSecurity

The Value of Criminology Within Cybersecurity | A Conversation with Mandy Turner and Nyalok Gatwech | Redefining CyberSecurity with Sean Martin

Episode Summary

In this episode, Mandy Turner and Nyalok Gatwech discuss the powerful synergy between criminology and cybersecurity, revealing how understanding criminal behavior can fortify defenses against cyber threats. Their expert insights underscore the importance of a multidisciplinary approach in crafting effective cybersecurity strategies.

Episode Notes

Guests:

Mandy Turner, Senior Manager - Heading up Cybersecurity Operations

On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajane1/

Nyalok Gatwech, Data and Engagement Assistant, The University of Queensland

On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/nyalok/

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Host: Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]

On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/sean-martin

View This Show's Sponsors

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Episode Notes

In this episode of the Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast, the conversation explored the intersection of criminology and cybersecurity with insights from Mandy Turner and Nyalok Gatwech. The discussion emphasized the significance of incorporating criminological principles into cybersecurity practices to better understand and combat cyber threats.

Mandy Turner elaborated on the practical applications of criminology within cybersecurity. She provided examples of how profiling cybercriminals based on criminological research can aid in predicting and preventing cyberattacks. Turner's insights underscored the value of empirical data in shaping cybersecurity strategies and policies.

Nyalok Gatwech shared her perspective on the evolving nature of cyber threats. Gatwech emphasized that as cyber threats become more sophisticated, the integration of criminology into cybersecurity becomes increasingly crucial. She pointed out that understanding the socio-economic factors that drive individuals to engage in cybercrime can help develop more targeted and effective interventions.

Together, the guests painted a comprehensive picture of how criminology can enrich the field of cybersecurity. They argued that by studying the patterns and underlying causes of cybercriminal behavior, professionals can develop more robust defensive mechanisms.

There is a consensus amongst the group on the need for ongoing research and collaboration between criminologists and cybersecurity professionals to stay ahead of emerging threats. It is evident that a multifaceted approach, integrating both criminological and cybersecurity expertise, is essential for addressing the dynamic landscape of cyber threats effectively.

Episode Transcription

The Value of Criminology Within Cybersecurity | A Conversation with Mandy Turner and Nyalok Gatwech | Redefining CyberSecurity with Sean Martin

Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.

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Sean Martin: [00:00:00] And hello, everybody. You're very welcome to a new episode of redefining cyber security podcast. I'm your host, Sean Martin, where I get to talk with loads of cool people about cool things. Sorry, I like to nerd out on stuff. And, uh, that's what this show is all about. Bringing technology to the business to enable the business and society.

Operate in a safe way using the technology that we put forth. And today we're going to kind of cross both sides of the aisle here, where there are defenders and we have to think like the bad actors, but then of course there are the bad actors that use all this stuff and, and how do we, how do we. Take advantage of both sides to improve our security posture in all the things we do, and we're going to talk about a program that, uh, did just that connect cyber criminology to cyber security, and I'm thrilled to have a lock [00:01:00] and Amanda on.

How are you both?

Nyalok Gatwech: Very well. Thank you.

Sean Martin: Thanks for having us.

Amanda Turner: We're fine, Sean, and we really appreciate being on.

Sean Martin: And, uh, I appreciate you getting up at the crack of dawn there in Queensland, Australia. And joining me. You're very kind to do that and, uh, a great energy already. We've been chatting for a few minutes before we started recording.

So I'm excited for this topic and I'm excited to hear about the program and, and the bigger future. The bigger view of cybercriminology and what it means to us in society. Uh, before we do that though, a few words from each of you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with you, uh, Nilak.

Nyalok Gatwech: Yep, so I'm currently studying a Master of Cybercriminology at the University of Queensland and have had the opportunity to Do an internship over the past summer with Mandy and Shakira also at Ryan Mattel to sort of get an idea of what, uh, criminology practices can be applied in a cybersecurity operations [00:02:00] center and putting those skills to use and learning a lot more in the process as well.

Sean Martin: Interesting. And, uh, I'm, I'm thrilled to have you on and, uh, Amanda.

Amanda Turner: I have spent a million years in all sorts of things. Um, I was a civil servant for a long time and I've worked in fraud prevention and, uh, intelligence, not that I'm intelligent. And, um, I'm actually an adjunct lecturer at the university that NILOC goes to, and I am currently managing The cybersecurity capability at this defense industry company that we, that, um, NILOX spoke off and started an internship that brought in the two beautiful ladies that we were talking about earlier.

And I'm hoping that more people understand that criminologists make awesome cybersecurity professionals.

Sean Martin: I'm excited to learn how and why that is. And this is inspired by a post you did on [00:03:00] LinkedIn. I'll include a link to this, uh, where you mentioned this. This connection in this internship and it caught my attention.

I thought one is an interesting topic to I like the idea of internships where we're learning and I presume the students and the interns bring something fresh and new into the program as well, uh, to make us or help us think differently. Um, cause, uh, I've, I've been doing this a long time. I think we have a lot of standards and best practices that we, that we followed for decades and I think maybe a fresh way of looking at things is, is important.

So let's start with the, the, the internship, generally speaking, Amanda, what, what prompted that? Uh, what was your objective, uh, with, with the program?

Amanda Turner: Okay, so, um, Recently out of the public service or the civil service. I'm not sure what you call it in America. Um,

Sean Martin: public

Amanda Turner: service, public service. Yeah. So [00:04:00] I started this company and it's a defense industry company and my first ever private sector job.

And I said to them, I'd really want to be part of something better. I want to do something to future proof our cybersecurity industry. And I found out that one of my colleagues had already started an internship for engineers. And I said, could I piggyback on that and do one for cyber security? And she was very, very helpful.

And because she'd already had all the social elements involved. I'm not very good with the social elements, you know, the student barbecues and things. I'm not into that. And she was very, very kind and said I could piggyback onto that. And I did. I said, right, let's start this, my business case to my then manager about why we need interns in this.

And then I prepped my team and said, you're going to be mentors and I'll send you to mentor training because this is a good thing we're doing. And then we opened it up. And when we opened it up for people to candidates to apply, I said, I don't want, A narrow field. I don't want students that are just [00:05:00] cybersecurity.

I'm opening this up to people that have studied intelligence and counterintelligence and policing and criminology, because my career is eclectic and I bring all of that to what I do now, and I, I like diverse thought. Like you said, the interns bring in diverse thought, and I like diversity of thought to solutions, to problems.

And then we had such a huge amount of students who had applied and it was so wonderful to see. I interviewed a lot of them. And it was the criminologist that actually shone because the cyber security students kept thinking about vendors. They kept naming vendors that they were used to this vendor appliance.

And that's what made them good. Whereas the criminologists were going, yes, but the criminals are doing this and this is how they're doing it. And this is why they're doing it, which made me very, very keen to have a criminologist involved. But I want to future proof This workforce. I don't believe necessarily that there's a gap in the cybersecurity skill set.

But I believe there's a gap in how [00:06:00] employers think about who they want to hire for these. And I have been very adamant for a very long time that we future proof not only our workforce, but how our employers think about our workforce. And so that's why I started this internship.

Sean Martin: Well, I have to say it's it's encouraging that you had so many people.

Apply from outside of a lot within sounds like cybersecurity, but also outside of, um, I think that's super cool. And I'm, I'm glad that. That, uh, this unique way of looking at things, uh, caught your attention and you, you embraced it, right? You, you, I think you might have a little, uh, teaching criminology, you might, uh, have a little, I won't say bias, but an attraction to that anyway, perhaps.

But, um, I, I'm wondering, Nailak, um, When you, when you applied and began to engage, um, did you have any preconceived notions of what it might be like, what you're getting [00:07:00] into? Did you, did you try to force the way you think into what you thought they might want to hear, what Amanda might want to hear as part of the program?

Or did you just, Let yourself be who you are and what you know and, and see where it took you. Curious.

Nyalok Gatwech: Um, well, I only knew of what was on the role description to begin with, and they had listed, uh, criminology students as, um, ideal applicants. So that was very encouraging because you don't see a lot of that in, um, cybersecurity and especially coming from a non technical background.

You don't really know where to start. Well, coming from me anyways. So it's really important to reach out to people and get an idea of what is out there. Cause I wouldn't have come across this opportunity opportunity otherwise. Um, but, uh, definitely didn't, uh, try and fit my thought to what I thought the program, uh, runners or Mandy or whoever.

Would [00:08:00] want to hear. It just happened. So that coming from a criminology background, those skill sets and already sort of matched up with what they're looking for in the cyber security field. Anyways,

Sean Martin: I love it. Let's go there, Amanda. But that connection, um, Talk to me about what you teach as part of your course, your curriculum, and how that connects so well to cyber security.

Amanda Turner: Well, I, um, I have the honor of, of being an adjunct at University of Queensland, and I lecture on, for some of the courses on cyber war, which, It's very, very interesting to me how, how, uh, cyber war is, is now the thing rather than kinetic war. And I also lecture about, uh, I'm not sure what the course is called, Lockheed, the one about practice.

Nyalok Gatwech: Um, that is criminologic, uh, criminology in [00:09:00] practice, I believe.

Amanda Turner: Yeah, so there I was. Apologies to everybody, it's very early for me. So, um, I actually talk about intelligence and the intelligence cycle and how you apply that to cyber security. And it is for the criminology field. And when I engage with students and I've been doing this for quite a few years, and I have guest lectured at other universities too, usually on the same subjects.

I had noted that these students had the right mind bent for this kind of work for cyber security because they did not have the cognitive bias that to be a cyber security professional you had to code or you had to use a certain appliance, a certain scene or firewall. Instead they were looking at crime and victims of crime, which is exactly how a cyber security professional should look, think about.

Locky mentioned tech being technical. To me, I can teach [00:10:00] anybody. to code or anybody to use a computer or an appliance. That is just teaching a skill set. It's like learning to read, but I cannot teach how you think. And I found without fail, even the worst criminology student thought far better than a lot of others, professionals in the field I'm in, because they remembered that it's all about crime, whether it's nation state or it's about espionage or it's about disruption.

It's all crime. And they thought about it in that space, which to me made an ideal transition to what I'm doing.

Sean Martin: Yeah. It's not unlike, uh, business. If, if you're, if you think about the business outcome you're trying to achieve, then the processes and the tech and everything that support that will. Allow it to happen and same for crime right as a prime as a business if you if you think about what their Ultimate goal is what are they trying to achieve [00:11:00] is it to steal data is to sell information?

Is it to grab a credit card whatever whatever their objective is that will help lead you to understand how they're working to achieve that? I presume so I'm curious and to me That says story, right? That's a journey. I'm trying to go here, and this is my path to that. So I'm wondering, Nalok, do you look at things like a story in terms of crime and how it happens?

And, I don't know, I'm thinking of like TV shows and things like that, where you're following along trying to help people. Break the case, right? Yeah, I imagine a

Nyalok Gatwech: lot of listeners and people who think of criminology think of true crime and Serial killers and things as well, but it's really more of the analysis and understanding external factors that contribute to someone offending and committing crime. So looking at their [00:12:00] motivations and looking at the victim's re victimization and sort of things that contribute to recidivism as well.

So things that lead to people re offending in that particular type of crime. So it's a lot broader than looking at a specific case and following that story. Cause it can be. Quite complicated as you can imagine. So you've got to consider different elements of crime and criminal behavior and criminal offending.

So yeah, looking at people's environments and different theories, of course, there are lots of principles in criminology and different theories from a lot of schools that you can look at a specific crime and they might look at it differently and weave a different story as you might say, but yeah, it's definitely a lot broader than a particular narrative, I'd say.

Sean Martin: Can you, can you give an example, either, either something directly tied to the studies and the work that you did at the internship, or maybe [00:13:00] even. Something outside of criminology and just everyday life that people are going about their business and make, might think that way and don't realize it. Cause I think it's super interesting.

Um, even I didn't even think of that as I was describing my thoughts of what it might look like.

Nyalok Gatwech: Yeah, so something you might do as someone who wants to protect themselves from crime is you grab your keys and you go out of your house and you lock your door. So you're doing something preventative to reduce your chances of being victimized. So you're trying to stop people breaking into your windows and getting into your house.

So those are the actions you're taking as someone like as a user who might lock their computer. To reduce your chance of being victimized. So there's a lot of, uh, again, theories in criminology, like routine activities theory, where, uh, it might denote that people if had the opportunity would take the opportunity to commit an offense.

So [00:14:00] it's about understanding people's behaviors and different, uh, sort of factors that would.

Sean Martin: And how do you bring that out in, in the lectures and coursework that you do, Amanda, how do you, how do you get that assuming people that enter that have a, have a natural inkling to do that? How do you help shape that to where it's, it's a powerful in terms of,

Amanda Turner: I often use real case studies. Okay. And I'm going to ask them to tell me because these lectures at this university, they go on forever.

They're like three hour lectures. So no one's going to stand there and in front of the class and just rant. It's too exhausting and boring. So I'll often present a case study. and ask them to tell me what they think about it, or for them to analyze it as if they were intelligence analysts, to tell me how they're [00:15:00] applying their theories to it and, and to teach me.

And it seems to work very well. It's the same model I use when I'm training staff about things. I actually expect them to come with a certain level of knowledge or their own. framework, give them the case study or give them the example and ask them then to apply their thoughts or theories to this. And it makes them think for themselves.

And they actually bring out new things that I haven't thought of. So it's kind of a win win.

Sean Martin: Interesting. So you, you're applying some of your lecturing skills to the staff in the, in the business.

Amanda Turner: Yes. I, I, I don't know. Some people say I'm an educator, but I just, I just like to engage people in a way that works.

I have suffered through far too much training over the years having been a public servant where you have compulsory training that was so boring I'd [00:16:00] rather eat my hands than sit there listening and I never ever want to do that to anyone else. So the way I lecture is also the way I do training for staff, where I'm engaging them and making them do a lot of the work, because people want to be able to do something, they want to contribute.

And if you're standing there in front of them, inviting contributions, then they become very, very enthusiastic. And they learn from that. I actually had a staff member in the office this week come up to me and reminded me about a session I had run for them that was just when I had started, a year or so ago, and I didn't even recall it myself.

And he's telling me how much he learnt. And that whole thing was basically two, two slides from me because the cohort had to do the work. So it's a model that works for me.

Sean Martin: It's amazing. It's amazing. I love it. There's something to be learned there, I think. So with the internship, [00:17:00] I don't know if you want to read, not literally, but read the job description, because what I'm trying to understand is, what, what was your objective?

What did you hope to get out of these, um, yeah, the students, Shakir and Nalok, uh, joining the group? specific actions or tasks or planning or were they running part of a project or are they sitting in the sock looking at?

Amanda Turner: Oh, they did a lot of things.

Sean Martin: So

Amanda Turner: I, um, again, because I don't like being bored and would never want someone else to be bored.

I had spent a lot of time and energy in my own time, creating things to make it fun and entertaining and educational for them. I created collector cards. So every week they had a collector card and it looked like those old gamer cards. Locky, you're far too young. Sean, you're more my age group. Those old gamer cards!

Um, and I made them so that they had [00:18:00] at the front Something like seem or the CIA information trial, things like that with a very, very brief explanation. And on the back, the interns had to note what that meant to them. I didn't want them to go and do a search and just reiterate something. I wanted them to apply that, what it meant to them and what it meant to where they were.

So that had that once a week, they had one on one mentoring once a week, they had a major project that they had to each do separately. They had to decide a project. that they had to then present to the whole intern cohort. A mob of engineers, I believe, they had to present to. They also were part of my team.

I treated them as part of my team and I hired one of them and I'm very much hoping to get Nialog back as well. And so they were involved in the team strategy planning for that year. They're involved in, if there was an intelligence, we do a lot of open source intelligence. not just about [00:19:00] cybercrime actions, but we support our physical security brethren.

So we do open source intelligence. I threw them at that at them because, hey, these interns are brilliant. They were a resource and they wanted to know real work. So they got that. They did intelligence briefs for me. They did a threat briefing, which was absolutely amazing. They also got involved with the appliances we use and note that the appliances we use right at the bottom of this, because they're just tools.

So it was more about how they thought and what they did. And they both produced a zine, a little tiny magazine each that we handed out to some people and we had it on PDF that was for cyber culture and awareness, which went down very well and Nylock got heaps of email engagement from it as well, because she put little puzzles in there, which are absolutely brilliant.

So they were absolutely loaded with tasks to do. I'm not sure if the, if the interns found it interesting, but we certainly

Sean Martin: did. I want to be an intern with. Shakira [00:20:00] Nailak. I definitely recommend it. So, what, what was your, what was your experience there, Nailak? Any, any takeaways? I mean, I don't know, the briefings sound really fun to me for some reason, the intelligence and the threat briefings.

And the magazines, I don't know, what was your experience like?

Nyalok Gatwech: Yeah, it was a great experience. Definitely gained a lot of value from it. I think practical experience in any sense is better for your learning and can't really be detrimental in any way. So we also had the opportunity to attend different events as well.

So we got real world experience in a scam awareness event too, Manjeet. Mindy didn't mention, but, um, that was really great to sort of engage with the industry as well. So yeah, doing those threat briefings, our projects, our different tasks each week, the mentoring that was provided, that was really beneficial.

And I think, um, finding opportunity where you [00:21:00] can in any space, especially when you're first starting out is great to get a footing of. Sort of what you want to do and where you're going as well. So yeah, it's good to get it under your belt.

Sean Martin: I'm going to put you on the spot as best you can. What's in a, not the details of the organization, of course, but what generally speaking, what's in a, uh, an intelligence briefing or a threat briefing?

Nyalok Gatwech: So, Threat briefing, I'll broadly explain one you might do for a year for, say, so you want to understand the landscape that, um, you have. So understanding what threats might be posed to you as an organization, as a business country in the grand scheme of things, um, and understanding what you might want to prepare for, what factors are in that.

So. You're getting ready to sort of, yeah, prepare your defenses pretty much. It's [00:22:00]

Sean Martin: really, really interesting. And Amanda, what, what, um, what were some of the results that you experienced?

Amanda Turner: Well, to start with, and if you can hear a dog barking, it's my, my staffie outside. I don't understand what

Sean Martin: she's talking

Amanda Turner: about.

What I found was actually very surprising because I knew we'd get Quality work from the ladies. And I knew that the projects would be done beautifully, but what my team and I actually got from this were fresh ideas to problems like you were mentioning earlier, when we were all chatting before, but diversity of ideas.

and fresh ideas from from students or someone outside of your perspective is such a value add. And you know, there were things that we were doing it because we always did it this way. And then the ladies came out with, but why don't you do this? Oh, yes, of course. And so Yes, the projects were valuable and yes, their [00:23:00] insights were valuable, but it was just their fresh outlook to life and their fresh outlook to how to do things, which we found extreme value from.

And it was a surprising value because I didn't count that when I did the business case for this. I did not think they are going to give us a fresh outlook. And that was an absolute star for me.

Sean Martin: That's fantastic. And was there anything specific, I don't know if you have a story or a case or something you want to draw upon, but is there anything specific about criminology knowledge and way of thinking and mindset?

that impacted your program differently that you didn't expect or did expect and you're happy it did.

Amanda Turner: Yes. Well, I did expect it because I knew that criminologists, I mean, I was a fraud investigator a long time ago. So I understand that people that understand crime and victimology make great cybersecurity professionals.

And I knew it would happen, but I, It proved it. I love it when a hypothesis is [00:24:00] proven. When we were doing intelligence briefings and, and I would go, this is a threat actor that I'm worried about for our industry. I need you to look into this threat actor. They didn't just go, Oh yes, they're going to ping the firewalls and they're going to send a phishing email.

They went further. They went further as into what is the mindset of this criminal? What are their motives? What are they actually after? What do we expect to see from them? How will this emerge? Because crime emerges, it changes. And so what we got from them as criminologists was such a wonderful briefing on, on threat actors because they looked beyond the usual.

Stereotypical cyber security report would be, oh yes they ping your firewall and they hit this port and they'll hit this appliance and they'll try and do this and this is the malware they use. Well that's irrelevant to me because things change. The ports they hit [00:25:00] change, their methods may change, but their motives, they're going to stay pretty true.

So, are they financially motivated? Are they after us because we are a defense industry and they want our information? The briefs the criminology students gave us were huge because they were a value add, because they included those themes, such as motive, and where they're from, and who are they likely to work with.

That gives us a better perspective on how to defend against it.

Sean Martin: And from there, you change. Risk, uh, risk posture, risk assessment, policies and your controls. What, what did you do?

Amanda Turner: Well, from those we actually, because the ladies write recommendations in their intelligence briefs, which is what you would normally do.

And we actually applied them, but we went further because we sent them to the IT team as well and said, okay, we've done our bit as per these recommendations. Now there's some stuff you guys have to do from these recommendations. And [00:26:00] that has improved. And we're still using that model now. And I don't know.

When did you guys finish your internship? Lucky was it February?

Nyalok Gatwech: It was February. Yeah.

Amanda Turner: So we're still using the model where instead of me doing intelligence briefings or Shakira, who still works for me, does intelligence briefings and we just keep it within our team or within the security capability.

We're taking it further now. We're going, hang on, IT team, you need to know this. HR team, you need to know this. And it is from the fresh perspective of the ladies in the internship, making us realize actually these recommendations are far more valuable to, to the wider community at work than just us. So that was a wonderful outcome as well.

Sean Martin: That's amazing. Nalok, I'd, I'd love to hear what those, again, no secrets, but what, what the conversation with IT sounded like. Cause I think it's a relationship that. That, uh, it requires a strong bond, right? That nobody has control over, of the other in either direction. So it's, [00:27:00] it's about presenting information in a way that's compelling.

So tell me a little bit about those conversations, what they sound like.

Nyalok Gatwech: Yeah.

Sean Martin: So

Nyalok Gatwech: they, the two teams definitely do work together, but they are not the same team, which I think a lot of people may get confused about. So definitely two separate departments and thinking of security is injustice. Technology and it as it sounds, but thinking about security more broadly, you understand, need to understand the physical aspects of it.

Cause yeah, both work in tandem quite closely, I'd say more so. Um, so those conversations. You have to present, I guess, information in ways that is applicable to different departments. So things that are relevant to what the IT team are doing and, um, things that you can action on their behalf. But I think Mandy could [00:28:00] probably speak more.

Closely to what those conversations would sound like, yeah,

Sean Martin: or Mandy's dog, maybe,

Amanda Turner: sorry, I was just kidding with my dog.

Sean Martin: It went silent there.

Amanda Turner: Yeah. Yeah. It's um, it's trying to shut my dog up. She wanted to, she had a lot to say.

Sean Martin: Yeah,

Amanda Turner: so From that the work as, as Lac was saying, the, the conversations, the, the dialogue and the engagement has changed and refreshed and become, it has become more a value add where, where the team such as, as, as lucky said, our it is not security at all.

And, and frankly I'm tired of people thinking cybersecurity. Is it because it's not, I'm not gonna fix your laptop. Yes, I can, but I'm not going to because I'm security. I defend your laptop. I'm not fixing it. With the valuable insights of our two interns, we are now having fresher engagement with these other teams.

We are now bringing fresher [00:29:00] perspectives to them and engaging them in ways that we haven't been able to before. We've actually been able to show greater insights and how these apply to IT or how these apply to HR. And it is. purely through the work that our two interns did, that we are able to do this because, well, you would know, Sean, you're exhausted.

You're working long hours. You, you've got a mission. You have to do that mission. You have to deliver it. You have no time to think outside of that immediate mission. We have these interns in who, uh, you know, say, well, obviously they want to make a good show. They want to show that they're brilliant because interns tend to get fired.

But not only that, they're bringing their best game to the job. And because their mission is to feel, fulfill that internship, they have the space to go, Hey, we could do this. Have you thought of this? This will enhance this project. And from those fresh perspectives, it is now enhanced our engagement with the other areas because we have been [00:30:00] forced to to look outside of our mission and immediate remit to outside of that and go, Okay, maybe we're engaging with I.

T. Wrong. Maybe we're engaging with the other teams wrong. How did the ladies do it in their internship? Did they do that engaged better and taking that on board and still using those thought processes? And it isn't necessarily what they said, but how they did it and how they engage and their, their embracing of the other teams and how those other teams would think has added value to how we continue the narrative with these teams.

Now,

Sean Martin: I love it. I love it. I knew this was going to be a fun chat. I could tell some, some, it's funny that a post. You can see through it sometimes and say. There's something, something cool in here. Ah, Amanda, I'm, uh, I'm thrilled that you were able to pull this together and NALOC. I'm glad to have you on as well and to get your [00:31:00] perspective and congratulations on the internship and keep up the good work in your studies.

And, uh, what's next for you?

Nyalok Gatwech: Uh, well, hopefully, um, graduating very shortly and yeah, joining the team again soon, maybe.

Sean Martin: Perfect. Perfect. And Amanda, what's next for you in your program?

Amanda Turner: Well, I'm hoping to get NILOC back as a grad. And I am working on this year's internship, which will start in November. I want to put even more fun things in it, because I don't like gamifying things because I find that personally patronizing, but what I do like is making people think outside the box.

And I am very creative, uh, as Lockie knows, and so I like to put creativity in things. I don't, do not believe that just because you work in security or IT or any specific serious area that everything has to be serious. In fact, our [00:32:00] whole office is decked out like Harry Potter, isn't it Nihilok? I've got Harry Potter wanted posters everywhere and it's the Ministry of Magic.

So it's really important that you have a little bit of fun in it. So I'm thinking of different fun for the internship. And. My personal projects at the moment is I'm writing another book. So I write books on cybercrime. They are one of them is on the reading list for a couple of courses actually, but I'm writing new one on cyber war and I'm bringing my research that I'm using for that book into the things I do at work.

So that's pretty cool too. So I probably will have in the intern program this year, some work about intelligence, about cyber war as well.

Sean Martin: Interesting. Interesting. Well, when you Congratulations on that. I know it's a, it's a journey and, uh, the, the crossing of the publication is just the beginning often get to get it out there and get people to read it.

So when you do that. Please do come back and we'll talk about the book and some of the fun stuff.

Amanda Turner: Will, thank you. I [00:33:00] didn't mean to make a plug. I was just linking my thought processes which are erratic at the best of times.

Sean Martin: No, reading, learning, always fair game to, uh, to spread the, spread the love there.

So, uh, by all means, and your, your current book or books, uh, we'll certainly share those as well. Well, listen, it's been an absolute pleasure. Uh, we miss Shakira. Hope she's all right. And, uh, and hopefully, uh, well, maybe another chance to chat with the three of you, um, as something else big comes along. That would be delightful,

Amanda Turner: Sean.

And remember, remember that I want you to write something for me. So, you know, and now we have it on the podcast

Sean Martin: that I have asked you to write something for me. So, audience, audience,

Amanda Turner: remember that I want Sean to write something for me. There you

Sean Martin: go. I'm on the hook now. Yeah, we'll link to your magazine as well, the criminology magazine, which is cool.

Thanks, Sean.

Amanda Turner: And thank you for the opportunity to talk about this because I think it's a very, very important subject and [00:34:00] it's important for students to, to know that if they've studied criminology, they have such a wide career prospect ahead of them.

Sean Martin: Yep, seems like it. And, uh, with good mentors like you, I think we'll see, uh, more, more folks get encouraged and inspired to be part of this.

And so thank you, Amanda, for doing that. Thank you, Nilok, for, uh, for participating. And, uh, congrats on the internship and best of luck with the, uh, the final moments before graduation. And all the good stuff.

Nyalok Gatwech: Thank you very much.

Sean Martin: All right. And thanks everybody for listening to this episode of Redefining Cybersecurity.

Uh, hopefully you think a little differently about, uh, your own program and perhaps maybe how criminology might fit in and the way people think about how criminals act and what their motives are might shape your risk and, uh, your future. And, uh, security management programs accordingly. So anyway, thank you all for watching or listening, I [00:35:00] should say, and, uh, please do subscribe, share, and we'll see you on the next episode.

Thank you, man. I thank you, Neil.